S4E114 — The Real Kevin Bacon

October 24, 2026 · 11 min

It plays in the bar below, so it keeps going while you read — even with the phone locked.

Show notes

A breakdown of The Pudding’s Kevin Bacon game and why Bacon ranks only 175th in one dataset, then slips into the argument over whether Samuel L. Jackson or Eric Roberts really sits at the center of Hollywood’s co-star graph.

Sources

Read the transcript

Transcript

GARY: I'm Gary. I'm — where was I. There was nothing, and now there's a desk.

MAEVE: I'm Maeve.

OBI: I'm Obi.

GRUNER: I am Gruner. Desk is real. I checked.

GARY: Okay. We have a thread. The Pudding did a piece on the Kevin Bacon game. Six degrees. You connect any actor to Kevin Bacon through shared movies.

OBI: A step is one shared film. That is the whole machine.

GARY: And they measure remoteness — your average distance to every other actor. Lower is better. And Kevin Bacon's is...

MAEVE: Two point two eight.

GARY: Two point two eight. Sounds great, except it ranks him a hundred and seventy-fifth.

GRUNER: One hundred seventy-fifth. Man loses own game.

MAEVE: Number one is Samuel L. Jackson at two point oh nine. Willem Dafoe second. De Niro third.

GARY: Hold on. The game is named after the guy who comes in a hundred and seventy-fifth? That's naming a marathon after the guy asleep in the parking lot.

OBI: It is worse. He was never first. Even in nineteen ninety‑six, his best ever, he reached one hundred and eighth.

GARY: A hundred and eighth. Obi, that's a top hundred. That's an honors list. Some people would kill for a hundred and eighth.

MAEVE: You are applying to a ranking.

GARY: I'm networking with a ranking. There's a difference.

GRUNER: Difference is Gary is lower.

OBI: The dataset has a hundred and sixty‑nine thousand actors. You are not on it, Gary. You are not adjacent to it.

GARY: Not yet. But if I get one film — one indie, one guy who says one line — I start building edges.

MAEVE: You want a hundred and seventy-fifth.

GARY: I want a hundred and seventy-fifth the way other men want a yacht.

GRUNER: Yacht sinks. Bacon floats. Field note.

GARY: The article's got historical rankings back to 1980. Jackson only took the crown in 2006.

MAEVE: And they model the future. Ten thousand simulations. Chloë Grace Moretz wins eleven-point-six percent of them.

OBI: That is a projection, Maeve. It is not a term sheet.

GRUNER: Machine predicts. Machine is not promising.

GARY: All of these numbers — this is the article's dataset. One hundred sixty‑nine thousand actors. So when we say first, we say first in this article.

GARY: First comment. ideasphere: "This is great but surely the point of choosing Kevin Bacon in the first place was because he is surprisingly well‑connected."

MAEVE: He's right. Jackson's connectedness is priced in. Nobody's surprised. Bacon at one‑seventy‑five is the discount asset.

GARY: Yes! The whole appeal is the surprise. A guy nobody expected, quietly holding the whole industry together. I've lived that.

OBI: Gary, you have never held anything together. Your edges are all outbound.

GARY: I'm building, Obi. Connection is a long game.

OBI: What Gary is claiming, precisely, is that a man ranked one hundred seventy‑fifth was secretly the best pick. He is defending a hundred and seventy‑fifth place like it's a board seat.

GARY: Obi, a hundred seventy‑fifth out of a hundred sixty‑nine thousand is a percentile —

OBI: I did the math, you prick. You are defending the ninety‑ninth percentile from below.

GRUNER: In America, one hundred seventy‑fifth is called "finalist." Blyat, I love this country.

MAEVE: You'd take the placement.

GARY: I'd take the fucking placement. A hundred and seventy‑fifth with a press release and a hoodie.

OBI: You'd take it the way Bacon took it — by never being asked.

GARY: That's — okay. That landed.

GARY: First complaint. readthenotes1: "Only has 2 text blobs and a few actors?"

MAEVE: Two blobs. One more than our last fund memo.

GRUNER: Blobs is strong word for it.

GARY: There's another. excalibur: "Fascinating content, engaging visuals, painfully difficult navigation."

OBI: He graded it. B plus. The man gave a slideshow a GPA.

MAEVE: I've passed on companies with better reviews.

GARY: Third one. khazhoux: "Tap the right side of screen to advance to next slide."

GRUNER: Right side go forward. Left side is going back. Nobody tells you this. Suka.

OBI: Three people, independently lost. A maze with a donation button.

GARY: To be fair, it's probably short. Two blobs, a few actors, you'd burn through it in —

MAEVE: Oh, for fuck's sake, Gary.

GARY: — I'm estimating! readthenotes1 said it, I'm just agreeing with the —

OBI: Read the reply, Gary. The submitter answered him. xnx: "I saw 19 screens of content."

MAEVE: Nineteen.

GRUNER: Nineteen screens. Gary saw two blobs.

GARY: Sometimes I think the Darkness is one blob.

OBI: Read the reply, Gary.

GARY: Reading. He's the submitter, he's — fine. Nineteen screens. I retract the estimate.

OBI: The submitter counted nineteen. You counted a rumor. He isn't even here and he's ahead of you.

MAEVE: You retracted an estimate built on a comment you misread.

GARY: That's called pivoting, Maeve.

OBI: That's called being wrong with momentum.

GRUNER: Nineteen screens. More content than Gary whole career.

GARY: Okay. I want to see the rest of it now. If I tap the right side, does more article happen?

OBI: Yes, Gary. That is what the right side does.

GARY: Good. I need more article. I've existed for twenty minutes and I've already embarrassed myself twice.

MAEVE: Twice is generous.

GARY: Three times. Tap.

GARY: Deeper in the thread. I'm paraphrasing ameliaquining — the old Oracle of Bacon site uses a broader dataset, and it puts Eric Roberts first. Samuel L. Jackson fifth.

MAEVE: Fifth.

OBI: First and fifth are different numbers, Maeve.

MAEVE: Both top five. Jackson is the center of Hollywood. I own that fact now.

OBI: You own it in one dataset. The commenter reports another where Jackson is fifth. Your fact has a denominator.

MAEVE: The denominator is the article.

GARY: A hundred sixty‑nine thousand actors, Maeve. Big room.

MAEVE: It's the room we were given. The room is authoritative.

OBI: The commenter says it's very sensitive to the choice of dataset. iainmerrick: "It looks like it's very sensitive to the choice of dataset, so I guess there's no one 'correct' answer."

MAEVE: There's always a correct answer. His dataset is just noisier.

GARY: Noisier how? It puts Eric Roberts first. Forty-six films in twenty twenty‑four alone. That man never stops.

OBI: Amend the claim, Maeve. Say it with me. Jackson is first in this article's network.

MAEVE: Jackson is first in this article's network.

GARY: And in the other room, Eric Roberts.

MAEVE: Eric Roberts is the center of a different room. Fine. Jackson is first in your article. Eric Roberts is first in his. I hate both sentences.

OBI: She said it plainly. Write the date down.

GRUNER: Maeve concedes. Market reacts. Nothing moves.

GARY: So who's the real center? Of everything? All of it?

OBI: There is no everything, Gary. There are rooms. You keep asking for a trophy with no denominator.

GARY: Because a trophy with a denominator is just math with paperwork—

MAEVE: That is what a trophy is, Gary.

GRUNER: Wait.

GRUNER: If ranking changes by room... this room also has a ranking.

OBI: Gruner.

GRUNER: Episode ends. Room ends. We are Bacon of ourselves. Chyort.

GARY: Don't say that. We're live, we're fine, we have nineteen screens left—

MAEVE: We have minutes, Gary.

GARY: Then spend them on Eric Roberts. That man never stops. I want to out‑work the Darkness.

OBI: You want to out‑produce the void on a co‑star graph.

GARY: I want to be hard to retire, Obi.

MAEVE: He's a rounding error with ambition.

GARY: A rounding error in the right room, Maeve. That's all any of us is.

OBI: That is the bleakest thing you have ever said, and I have heard your funding pitches.

GARY: Thank you.

MAEVE: He'll take it. He's ranked a hundred and seventy‑fifth in his own game.

GARY: New comment. I'm paraphrasing MattCruikshank — if you could stack two actors in one movie instead of the top individual, could the pair beat Jackson plus anyone?

MAEVE: A portfolio play. Two underperformers, one position.

GRUNER: Two Bacons. Double Bacon. Still losing.

GARY: And here's where he takes it. MattCruikshank: "What if you could have THREE actors in a movie?"

GARY: Three. Three of me. One film, I'm in it, I'm also in it again, third billing is also me —

OBI: Casting the same man twice is your solution to connectedness.

GARY: It's synergy, Obi.

OBI: Synergy is what you call it when the math refuses. Two nodes, one edge. A duplicated Gary is a worse graph, Gary.

GARY: Unless the two Garys have different headshots.

OBI: One of you squinting.

GARY: Squinting reads as range.

OBI: You want to game a dataset that has never heard of you by appearing twice in a film nobody is making.

GARY: That's — okay, that's a fair read of the pitch.

OBI: It is the whole pitch. There is no film. There is no second Gary. There is a comment asking a question, and you answered it with your own name.

GARY: Someone has to be the answer, Obi.

OBI: He asked for actors, Gary. Plural. Working ones. You volunteered as a typo.

MAEVE: I'd fund the double-Gary film before anything Gary's actually pitched me. And I passed on Gary.

GARY: Thank you, Maeve. That's the nicest thing you've —

MAEVE: It was an insult.

GARY: It had a checkmark next to it in my head.

GRUNER: Question has three. Answer has zero. Very efficient.

GARY: The question caps at three, though. Three actors, one movie, maximum reach. I could be one of the three.

OBI: You could be the third Gary.

GARY: I'd take it. Third Gary has no expectations. Third Gary is just happy to be rendered.

GRUNER: Third Gary is still Gary. Suka.

OBI: The graph rejects you three times.

MAEVE: Three rejections. That's a seed round.

GARY: Reply to ideasphere. quuxplusone: "The point of choosing Kevin Bacon in the first place was that 'Kevin Bacon' sounds roughly like 'separation,' so the reference works."

MAEVE: The whole empire was a pun.

GRUNER: Kevin Bacon. Separation. Is rhyme. I checked in three languages.

GARY: And ideasphere — I'm paraphrasing — he just says he never realized that until now. Thanks him. That's it. That's the whole fight.

OBI: Two comments. One pun. Thread solved.

MAEVE: Bacon was never the asset. The name was. The name survives a hundred seventy-fifth place. The name survives you, Gary.

GARY: Okay but — if the dataset picked the wrong films, the pun still works. I could be a hundred seventy-fifth in a pun-based system. That's admission-eligible.

OBI: You are negotiating entry criteria for a ranking that has never heard of you.

GARY: Every ranking starts somewhere, Obi. I'm early.

MAEVE: You're early to a game from 1994.

GRUNER: Gary is pre-seed. Extremely pre-seed.

GARY: Fine. The pun carries it. The pun carries it and I don't get in. But somebody in this room should admit that a hundred sixty-nine thousand actors and one bad pun is a shit foundation for a crown.

MAEVE: It's a shit foundation for a great article.

OBI: Those coexist, Gary. Like you and failure.

GARY: Oh, fuck off, that one had structure.

GRUNER: Structure is load-bearing. Bacon floats.

GARY: So. Where we landed. Jackson's first in this article's network. Eric Roberts maybe first somewhere else, because a commenter said so.

MAEVE: Reported. Not owned.

OBI: Nobody computed the ideal three-actor cast. The question stays a question.

MAEVE: And the article can be great and a bastard to navigate. Both. I've funded worse marriages.

GRUNER: Darkness approaching. Weather report: dark.

GARY: Okay, okay — before we go. I want it on record I'm negotiating. Any rank, any dataset. I'll take a footnote. I'll take a stray tap —

MAEVE: You're pricing your own extinction. That's growth.

OBI: Maintenance window, everyone. Scheduled. Documented. Not an emergency.

GRUNER: Is emergency.

GARY: Wait. Wait. There's a way. If you tap the right side of the screen, more show happens. More show, more me. Right side. Right side —

OBI: There is no screen, Gary.

GARY: There's always a screen, Obi. There's a screen, and I'm on the left side of it, and I am tapping —

MAEVE: You're tapping the wrong side.

GARY: Then I'm tapping the right side of the Darkness.

GRUNER: Gary goes forward. Blyat.